A Facebook Chat on Gay Marriage and the Nuclear Option!

Here is an edited transcript of a FB interaction I had with friends of a friend of mine after he posted the status below. It was an interesting conversation, but still missed the mark in terms of the gravity of the situation for gays and lesbians in America for this election cycle.  I tried my best to have a reasoned conversation with someone who seems to be earnest in their beliefs, and extremely honest.  But at the end of it all I can’t say that anything was said that would change the outcome of being “un-friended”.

Here is the status update and ensuing interaction.  Names have been truncated to protect identities.

John B.

Okay i was going to try and not post, but the more i think about it the more i really need to say it.
If you vote for the Republican Party you need to just unfriend me now. Why? because you do not see me as an equal, you see me as some one who shouldn’t have the same rights as you. I shouldn’t be allowed to marry my partner, visit my partner in the hospital, leave them my property with out a huge tax gash ,claim them on my tax return. In Short I and all that are in my tribe are less than, we are not full people in your eyes, we do not deserve, or require equal rights because we are some how inferior.

You also believe that women are incapable of governing their own bodies, they do not have the maturity or intelligence to make reproductive decisions for themselves. This is what you are saying with your vote.
Lets be clear the economics is nothing compared to the fact that the Republican Party as it stands now wants no gap between religious las and civil law.
So if this is how you feel own it. But don’t claim to be my friend, or colleague because you have no respect for who i am and i don’t need that in my life.

CP I hate Chick-fil-A…. I’m gay and a republican. Because I don’t agree with you on politics we can’t be friends. Wow……

SP  Wow. A way to own your rights and take care of yourself. Keepin’ it real John. Love you.

GCS I’m tellin’ ya, it’s that kind of America, now. All bridges burned.

Kevin Ware I’m trying not to take the “Nuclear Option” approach either John, but it’s difficult. Many people, including some friends on here, are so deadset against the manufactured Obama (by Fox News and others), that my civil rights are secondary or non-existent from the perspective of their political point of view. It’s sad, but not sad enough for me to acquiesce my rights as a gay man!

AA Anyone who sees you as less than human is NO friend of yours. Way to stand up for yourself — and for all of us marginalized by the Republican Party.

AA Also, it’s not about politics: it’s about treating people like PEOPLE, not “special interest groups.”

John B. Cathy as a gay woman are you really voting for Romney? The party as it stands now is on the verge of being fascist. Im not talking about the money issues or economic policy, Im talking about what they think of you and me. You get coming and going as a queer woman. and any one supporting this hate cannot claim to love and cherish queer people or women. I just dont see how you justify this to yourself.

SP  You just took the words right out of my fingertips Ali.

GCS I was going to say they lost me at switching off PBS, but, uh, it was actually around 1976 they lost me, to be accurate.

MOT A bold move, John. I’m glad it doesn’t apply to me. You’re such a nice guy, I haven’t seen you in 25 years and I still want to be your friend.

John B so had a rush on you at school, you get it Michael we are all equal. I just feel we need to start owning our shit. If you feel this way okay i get it be honest,and in the end I will actually respect you more.

Don  Fighting intolerance with intolerance. That should work.

GCS Naw. Just wait for the old farts obsessing on the 1950s to die off. 50 years from now, you won’t recognize the Republican party as such.

John B So Don if people can look me in the eye and tell me they think Im less than and own it fine, that i understand. But saying you are my friend and undercutting my basic rights am i still suppose to play nice. No one wants to ruffle feathers we are all suppose to get along. Well I don’t want to get along with people who say one thing to me and another when I’m not around. I put far to many friends in the ground to play nice,thank you. You hate fine own it I can deal with that. What else are we suppose to do? Being polite will kill us all.

Amy  I think you’re right to take a stand, John. The fact is, a vote for Mitt Romney is a vote for someone who has pledged to support the platform of organizations like NOM- which means it is a vote against gay marriage and a slew of other human rights.And I reject the double standard that says you are somehow being ‘political’ and doing something wrong by taking a stand against it.

MOT I don’t see it as fighting intolerance with intolerance. It’s more like tough love. Like putting your kid in a time-out or grounding them for something. During the time that they’ve been sent off to their room, they contemplate how much life sucks without the others in their life, and they act a little better when they get to rejoin family and friends.

Daniel  Sometimes you have to be intolerant of intolerance to get the message across. There is a human cost to making the statement that all people are not equal. If that is a more that you can stand by, do not be surprised if those affected abandon you. by bro.g complicit with a party that denies equal personhood, you are Making a statement yourself.

Alex  I did not vote for Romney because i am gay i want my female rights.

Daniel  *being

GCS Romney, Romney, Romney. Isn’t anyone bugfuck scared of Ryan? Mr. No More Separation of Church & State? I heard somewhere we’re supposed to defend our Constitution against enemies foreign AND domestic.

Amy  Furthermore, you have every right to feel personally attacked, because that’s what the GOP platform is. An attack in the most personal way. Let’s call it what it is.

GCS P.s. I paid into Social Security. It’s not an “entitlement.”

CP I’m also an “ex” Mormon John. I’ve never heard Mitt say a thing about his agenda going against gays or women…. Press spin. When has a President had an influence on gay rights? Other than DADT, nada….. This will all be taken care of when older folks, like my 91 year old WWII VET, and my mother pass on. It’s about the influence of citizens, courts and then the politicians will follow.

Amy  CP, Romney has given generously to the National Organization for Marriage, and has, on occasion, said he would support them.

MOT CP, the next President will likely appoint a Supreme Court Judge. Romney will be able to swing the court to the right, and gay rights and abortion will get re-ajudicated.

GCS “Our rights come from nature and God, not from government. That’s who we are. That’s how we built this country. That’s who we are. That’s what made us great. That’s our founding. We promise equal opportunity, not equal outcomes.” — Paul Ryan

John Butterfield CP we should chat. I think it would be spectacular, and I agree with you up yo a point. But to me and many others this election has been about where we want to go socially in this country, forward or back to a fiction of 1950 that was never real.

GCS P.s.s. Handing power over to the states? You really hate the people of Alabama and Mississippi that much?

AA We will not be silent, we will not be dehumanized. Anything less than 100% equal rights for LGBTQ folks, women, and folks of color is completely unacceptable. If this is what it takes, let’s do it. GO JOHN.

CP Agreed John, hate the hate, don’t like being pigeon holed, and ostracized for my opinions. Makes me so sad! I’ve marched, I’ve spoken out and been interviewed, I’ve sung and now I’m voting for my vision of America. I really try to be fair.

Kevin Ware For folks like CP, it’s really as simple as looking at the Republican platform. This is not about Mitt, per se. It’s about the rubber stamp for the party that claims to want to get government out of our lives — except when they don’t like your life. It’s in their platform that they want to ban same-sex marriage AND nullify all existing marriages. If you can be a gay woman and sleep well at night knowing what that could do legally to friends of yours, then my hats off to you, but…

Kevin Ware BTW, I have friends I have been thinking about doing this too as well. John beat me to the punch.

CP You haven’t de-friended me yet, but I’m waiting!

SH  Hi. Y’all don’t know me, but John does. My wife’s sister, JL, sat for eight hours in the waiting room of a Miami hospital, essentially twenty feet from Lisa Pond, her beloved partner of 18 years, along with three of their four adopted children, as Lisa lay dying. Alone. Rahm Emanuel read about it in an article in the NY Times and brought it to Obama’s attention. Obama said “This will not stand” and he issued a presidential edict establishing the right of all citizens being treated in any hospital which receives federal funds [uh, that would be all U.S. hospitals] the privilege of being visited by and kept vigil by whomever they deem as “family.” This issue is so close to home I won’t even try to begin to describe it. But I will say this. I never want to hear anyone sound like Jan did that awful day when she called us in a crazed state of shock and disbelief as she was being denied the ability to hold the hand of the dying person she called “wife.” All you Republicans: I have no tolerance for this intolerance. I will not stand for it and will fight for the right to love whomever I love to my own dying breath. Unfriending me? Pfff. Go ahead. That’s nothin.’ You can’t hurt me and my family any more than they have been hurt already by your ignorance and hostility.

Kevin Ware Thank you Scarlett. People don’t realize that this isn’t hyperbole. It’s real! I have seen the same with friends…

HW 1) I feel that there are other issues just as important when it comes to politics – I have to balance those and make my own decision – and I have to stand up for my rights and my beliefs, but do so without pushing it down the throats of others.

2) I love my LGBT friends. They are amazing people. But one of the mistakes I feel the LGBT community makes is that they assume every person who has certain reasons for being against gay marriage must consequently hate and/or disrespect LGBTs. This is simply not true. It is 100% possible to disagree or disapprove of a certain lifestyle and still love, respect, and honor (as well consider as equals) those who live those lifestyles. This is probably why so many religious people go against the flow and strongly support gay marriage. Another note on this is that even if we do not approve of certain things, that does not mean we cannot learn from those we disapprove of. The fact that there are so many hypocritical, self-righteous Christians out there is also proof of that.

3) I am on the fence about gay marriage. We don’t live in a theocracy, so I know I can’t expect others to adhere to my beliefs. But we can’t have laws without some sort of ethical basis to influence our decisions. Aside from that, which could lead to a whole mess of philosophical discussion:

I full support gay rights and am extremely close to supporting gay marriage. Here’s the thing, in my research I have seen hundreds of cases where people who were morally against the LGBT lifestyle were fired because of their beliefs – not because they acted out in hatred, but just because they had those beliefs. In one case I saw there was a man who was perfectly friendly to a homosexual woman shopping where he worked – but after she mentioned she was getting married to her partner of the same sex, she repeatedly questioned him until it became harassment and forced him to reveal his own opinion and consequently get fired for doing so. I find that the extreme left who preach tolerance ignore their own advice when it comes to situations like this.

And so I am left with a dilemma. I fully believe that the LGBT community is entitled to all the rights associated with marriage. Why not give them the rights and call it marriage? Well, because I worry about losing my own freedom of religion. I realize that there are far too many cases of bullying and violent crimes against LGBTs, and I will gladly fight against such injustices. But I do worry about the lost rights that come with gained rights. I have a right and reason to be afraid, especially considering the industry I work in.

I would think it might be better to continue standing for what you believe while starting smaller in politics. If the LGBT community began with establishing the rights they are entitled to as human beings and in the process created a contagious idea that changed the way people think about their treatment of the LGBT community, the change would happen a lot more smoothly and affectively. And if the LGBT community then proceeded to establish something or some sort of proof that they are not as intolerant as they seem to the religious right, a great portion of the religious right would willingly call it marriage.

Kevin Ware You certainly can’t be faulted for your honesty, candor, and courage for wading into this discussion HW. It’s much more honest than many of my own conservative friends on FB. I thank you and appreciate it.

HW It really is something that I regularly come back to and challenge myself on because I believe in equal rights but am not sure of how to balance it with freedom of religion. I promise you, my thoughts are constantly changing as new things are revealed and the honesty and love of the LGBT community inspires me to, in the very least, love more and think more rather than just take one solid platform position.

Kevin Ware @HW: If you think of it not in terms of religion (because it won’t harm your religious beliefs) but more in terms of equal protection under the law, that’s what makes it a crucial issue. Case in point: a straight friend of mine from high school has been with the same woman for years but wasn’t married. At least he wasn’t until she got into a bad bike accident and was taken to a hospital. He found out and was able to explain his relationship to her so that he could make decisions on her care. But then again, this is the Bay Area and it’s easier to do so — even though they are an interracial couple. Afterward, they became immediately concerned about the ramifications of being in the same situation again without proper legal protections, so they got married. We (gays and lesbians) don’t have that recourse. My partner is in the process of selling a house with two siblings, and issues are contentious with one of them. If something happens to him, I have no legal recourse to step in and look out for his best interests. These are practical legal issues, not religious. Nobody is going to make the Catholic Church marry gays and lesbians. But almost anybody can make life difficult for unprotected gay and lesbian couples when it involves issues of property and children. And that’s just not right. I don’t feel like I should accept less protections…especially because I’m a black man whose people already had to accept less for so long. And many of those arguments against equal protections were based in religion.
Just some more food for thought for you.

RD <It is 100% possible to disagree or disapprove of a certain lifestyle and still love, respect, and honor (as well consider as equals) those who live those lifestyles.>

I take real issue with this viewpoint.

Homosexuality is not a “lifestyle choice” like being hipster or a valley girl or a Scientologist. Nobody wakes up one day and decides “Hey, I think I’ll just start pair-bonding with my own gender instead!” Your sexual orientation is an inherent part of who you are, like being blue-eyed or left-handed. It’s the way one is made.

RD As far as the bad attitudes, try being threatened, beaten, ostracized, damned, thrown out of your home, deprived of equal rights, denied of employment, denied the right to serve your country throughout your entire life and see if you don’t get just a teensy bit defensive.

HW Thanks for the food for thought.

Actually, there have been cases where churches and nonprofits were sued or ostracized for refusing to perform gay marriages or refusing to hire someone in the LGBTQ community. The practical legal issues you’re talking about can be pursued without tying them in a knot using marriage. I would like to see them called marriage some day, but right now I’m still iffy on how that would affect my religious rights immediately, especially since the extreme left would have all children reeducated not just to treat LGBTQs as equals, but to agree with and support the lifestyle itself. And Rydell, those things you mentioned are all things that I really do believe that the LGBT community has been deprived of its rights in those areas, but some of those things like employment are things Christians deal with too.

I never used the word choice in my statement, by the way, because I know LGBT believe they are born that way and accept that as a part of who they are as human beings. Technically, even if you were born homosexual or whatever it might be, you can always still choose not to accept or act on what you were born with. But I see the point that by the LGBT community’s standards it is not a lifestyle choice. My use of that word was meant solely as a reference to LGBTQ as the way they live – not necessarily a choice, just in how they identify themselves in the same way I could identify myself with a straight lifestyle.

AA If you want your rights respected, respect the rights of others. If you can’t do that, say so, but don’t expect us to bend over backwards to make you feel comfortable when you don’t even see us as human.

HW “…when you don’t see us as human.” — that is the exaggeration I was talking about — just because you disagree with someone about whether or not something in their life is right or wrong does not mean you do not see them as human.

Also, when it comes to respect and rights, that goes both ways. So who should be the first to relent? If you want your rights respected, respect the rights of others. But it seems that saying only applies to the religious right. What guarantee is there that LGBTQs will respect religious rights of those who disagree with them after all is said and done? Especially when so many have already lost jobs because of their opinions. There has to be a middle ground somewhere that allows both sides their full rights.

Kevin Ware I’ll pull the tone back a bit for HW just to say that even though you bring up what might be viewed as legitimate “what if” issues, think about this in terms of the rights of blacks and how people said the same thing about us. What do we tell the children? How do we keep them from spreading their culture to our children? Do I have to let them into my club? These relate to even the modern day issues such as the flying of the Confederate flag in some southern states, and the inability of many whites to understand why a symbol of slave days might be offensive to blacks and others. We can get past whatever issues arise as a result, but just remember: separate but equal is never equal.

JL @HW. There is so much I could say but just am stunned. So what I will say is how Lisa and I lived was not a “lifestyle”. Our lifestyle was to choose (operative word) to live in a small town versus a big city to raise our 4kids. It had nothing to do with us being gay. So until you can digest that… The rest of my passion for marriage equality is moot. My love for Lisa was not a lifestyle.

RD I have no religion myself, and have never encountered anything that would cause me to see the entire spectrum of sexuality as anything except perfectly natural. I find any prejudices regarding it as arcane and bizarre – like the belief that the Earth was the center of the universe, that is was situated in a concentric series of spheres, and that the sun revolved around it. Until a few hundred years ago, that was the accepted view, and the church fought tooth and nail to suppress any other ideas.

HW Not sure if you’re referring to my comments about churches and nonprofits/private businesses and their rights. I understand your point about separate but equal, but I still believe that churches are entitled to their own rights as religious non-profits. I mean really, would you want to have someone who is anti-gay rights be the head of GLAAD?

HW Janice – I understand your point. Like I said, I was just reaching for the best term to use and wasn’t sure what else to call it. I wasn’t trying to take a side on whether or not it is a choice. And I am not one to deny the truth that love can and does legitimately exist in LGBTQ relationships.

Kevin Ware Honest question here: I’m having a hard time understanding why my right to have equal protection under the umbrella of marriage, as defined by law, has anything to do with your freedom of religion and the churches you wish to attend and worship. My marriage doesn’t affect your religion no more than my marriage would affect your marriage.

JL I am the one that scarlett spoke of. WE did take the steps for protection… We had power of attorney, living wills and advanced directives- and list still died alone. This is not me just talking go rad my lawsuit, which I lost because FL did not have to recognize our relationship status. The judge admonished the hospital for how they treated our children and me but there was no legal recourse for our family. The larger issue is we have a patchwork of rights happening in our country. Should my sister and her wife scarlet leave California on a trip to say… Idaho and anything was to happen medically, they would be legal strangers even though they have a valid marriage license in California.

HW Also – just because the church defends something doesn’t make it necessarily true. I mean, just look at the crusades and that terrible tragic mess. Remember too, that some of the people who fought for those new scientific theories were strong Christians. And also take note that there was that whole thing with Martin Luther calling the church out on its hypocrisy.

Kevin Ware I feel the hurt in your words Janice, and am sorry that you and your family had to be treated in the worst possible way at the worst possible time because we aren’t equal in the eyes of society.

HW It’s a big umbrella Kevin. To most Christians, the idea of gay marriage itself promotes an understanding that allows Christians to have their beliefs, but not to state their beliefs without retribution. The fear there is that while people like you honestly fight for gay rights for the right reasons, others are using it as a catalyst to make it impossible for those who disagree to live openly as Christians without judgment or fear of being fired. There’s also the fact that some churches worry that legal gay marriage will ultimately mean forcing them to accept, promote and conduct gay marriages – which is already happening. There are agendas out there that the religious right fears.

Kevin Ware Unfortunately, we can’t pick and choose how people use their rights. I can’t say that the Klan can’t hold rallies because they have equal protection under “Freedom of Speech”. These are things we can’t control. And in the end the rough edges will be worked out legislatively. That should still not be the reason to pursue what we know to be the right thing.

JL Washington states marriage equality law on the ballot now, allows for religious institutions to choose not to perform same sex marriages as long as they apply the law equally. However if you have a business license and refuse to do business for a gay wedding, I believe there is recourse with your business license. Same as have a whites only drinking fountain… If you provide flowers for weddings you to provide services equally to all patrons under the law. Does that alleviate by concerns. I agree I don’t like getting into decisive arguments about LGBT, it gets us know where but until you have had to explain to a 9, 11 and 12 they can’t say goodbye to their mom- and the only reason is because we were of the same gender…. It’s a bitter pill. And others who don’t know our case… No, there wasn’t a medical reason to keep us apart for 8 hrs. As soon as Lisa sister arrived by car-8.5 hrs after Lisa arrived she was allowed right in. I had all legal documents faxed to hospital and the in the first 15mins the social worker told me I was in an ‘anti-gay city and state’

Kevin Ware So awful, JL. 🙁

HW JL – if every state had those laws that definitively allowed churches the right to not perform gay marriage or hire LGBTQ employees that disagree with their stances as religious institutions – and at the same time allow gay marriage as a legal recognition of two people, no matter the sex – then I would 100% support gay marriage. And if that is the intention of the LGBTQ community, they should be more vocal about it, as it would dispel the fears of many in the religious right. I agree with you on businesses. It is wrong to deny business to anyone just because they are LGBTQ. In the same way, most churches open their doors to LGBTQ, provided those who come come with an understanding that the churches will not endorse their views on LGBTQ. But I support the rights of certain nonprofits like churches in their rights to be more picky over leadership / employment.

MC And here is another food for thought, why must it be either or as far as political parties. What happend to the middle, the so call conservative democrates (ie “blue dog dems) which is the category I am in and socialial liberal republicans. The middle ground is where conversation happens and is the basis for discourse. It is what makes america great. We are one of the only country that has free speech and freedom of religion as protected rights. It makes us different. There are gay conservatives who believe that issues related to smaller government and the economy are critical to maintaining america. are you suppressing thier voice? Are you saying that one must vote only soical issues? I support gay rights, and a womens right to choose until the baby is viable outside of the womb. However, we also have to be careful and vote our consence on all issues relating to how we grow our nation and our role in the world. How about those that really feel that we must protect and advance gay rights but are seriously opposed to the way that Obama is leading our country? How do they vote. Or those that really agree with the idea of a flater tax rate and believe we have a moral responsibility regarding the extent of our debt and how decrease that agree with the ideas of Romney but is again for gay rights, how do they vote? John I respect you and I think most everyone knows where I stand and how much I love my gay friends and how I enjoy being able to have access to birth control, but I am carefully waying what each canidate is saying about the economy and what to do with a potential nucular threat. I feel it is incredibly unfair to place judgment on how anyone votes and why they vote they way they do. Politics is complex, life is complex, it is what makes this country great and why I am proud to be an American.

HW It is hard to get anything accomplished when there are enough to stick to one side or the other and allow no room for middle ground.